“Dawn” – More Questions Than Answers

Sometimes, researching facets of Mandela Effect phenomena leads me down odd rabbit holes. The Leslie Charteris detective/mystery story, “Dawn,” published in 1947, has been one of them. It’s a very strange tale, and inconsistent with Charteris’ other stories.

Dawn - more questions than answers / Charteris(“Dawn” appears in the collection, Saint Errant. It’s a collection of stories about “The Saint,” best known as a popular TV series starring Roger Moore, and then a movie starring Val Kilmer, and then a failed TV pilot starring Adam Rayner.)

I know most readers are likely to sigh and feel this is very geeky and off-topic. (Feel free to stop reading here.)

I apologize for the strangeness of this, but — because this could point to something useful and relevant (I’m not sure what, yet) — I want to present what’s been discussed (in comments and in private) so far. It does relate to Mandela Effect… maybe.

(My opinion…? I see the potential forks in this research, but there’s too much data for me to pursue at this time, and — in the end — it may lead nowhere.)

UPDATE: Thinking about this overnight, four possibilities — or perhaps a blend of a couple of them — seems to emerge.

  1. It’s just a story and we’re reading too much into it.  I’m fine with that.
  2. Whomever actually wrote the story had authentic (perhaps personal) insights about shifting between realities.
  3. The person who wrote the story had inside information about secret government projects involving advanced physics. (If this is true, my guess is it’s editor John W. Campbell.)
  4. A group of individuals — most of them sci-fi & fantasy writers — found some kind of entry to the future or to alternate realities… and then laced their stories with hints about what they discovered. The group included Leslie Charteris, Cleve Cartmill, and Henry Kuttner, possibly Theodore Sturgeon, and likely John W. Campbell.

(At this point, while Charteris’ story, “Dawn,” offers some intriguing, Mandela-ish inferences, I think Henry Kuttner’s writing may provide even more.)

Here’s why I’m posting this, even though it may turn out to be nothing of note:

Initially, a long-time Mandela Effect researcher and enthusiast, Vivek Narain, mentioned the Charteris story. I hadn’t read it in years, but Vivek raised several questions about time-travel, alternate realities, and other issues suggested in this short story from “The Saint” series.

Saint Errant at AmazonRe-reading the story, I felt that Vivek had good reason to recommend the story.

For one, I found many names that — to me, anyway — seemed odd enough to be anagrams or substitutes for real-life names.

Selden Appopoulis was one. Trailer Mac was another. Even “Dawn Winter” might be code for someone or something else. (A cameo opal may seem a little unusual to Americans, but cameo opals are less rare in Australia.)

Vivek pointed to eerie coincidences with other names and hidden references. Most connect with American government projects and a few conspiracy topics, notably:

  • DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency)
  • The Lindbergh kidnapping
  • John Lennon’s life and death, and
  • JFK’s assassination.

“Alice in Wonderland, and Through the Looking Glass” elements connected some of them (for code names), especially The Walrus and The Carpenter (Jabberwocky) poem.

Of course, I’m familiar with shaky conspiracy theories and the thready evidence they can be based on. I do not want to make this about the related conspiracies.  That’s a very important point. Keep it in mind when leaving comments; I will not approve anything that will spark conspiracy-focused threads.

Instead, if Vivek and a few others I’ve talked with are correct, the hints and signposts in “Dawn” could present a compelling argument supporting the Mandela Effect.

In fact, the more I researched the story, “Dawn,” the more familiar some elements seemed. They included a character — Big Bill Holbrook — with “the peculiar delusion that he is only a character in a dream which Andrew Faulks, a bank teller in Glendale, has been having. Each night the man`s dreams have been going on a bit longer than before, and this time, `Holbrook` is worried that it`s passed the point of no return and the dream won`t have an ending.” (That was from an alt.pulp summary by Dr. Hermes)

Aside: While that plot device isn’t unique, the story presents it with unsettling phrasing I’ve heard in real life… related to something definitely not fiction.

A few years ago, a noted scientist described to me — in confidence — his continuing, sequential (and often daily) dreams that suggest a second, concurrent life in a parallel reality.

It happened at a specific time each day, and only when he spontaneously fell asleep at a particular location. (Not feet away from it, or at home or when traveling for his research; just at one, exact spot.)

Generally, he’s been a skeptic of paranormal phenomena, so I took his story very seriously. He’s not the kind of person who’d piece together a fantastical tale from thready evidence.

For me, this could be part of the Mandela Effect: Alternate, very real timestreams we visit in our sleep, and — because they’re equally “real” — sometimes don’t distinguish from the current reality. (This also refers to research by Dr. Fred Alan Wolf.)

Of course, the dream/reality concept isn’t entirely new, just the quantum research suggesting it.

From “Through the Looking Glass” (1871) by Lewis Carroll:

“He’s dreaming now,” said Tweedledee: “and what do you think he’s dreaming about?”Alice said “Nobody can guess that.”
“Why, about you!” Tweedledee exclaimed, clapping his hands triumphantly. “And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you’d be?”
“Where I am now, of course,” said Alice.
“Not you!” Tweedledee retorted contemptuously. “You’d be nowhere. Why, you’re only a sort of thing in his dream!”
“If that there King was to wake,” added Tweedledum, “you’d go out — bang! — just like a candle!”

As I looked into “Dawn” (aka “The Darker Drink”), things quickly took a dramatic and confusing turn… followed by another, and another, and so on.

It’s a very labyrinth-like rabbit hole.

First, there’s the story itself and the odd references in it. Then there’s the mystery of who wrote it, which — because it might make a difference if you’re looking into this — I’ll present first.

Charteris may not have written “Dawn.” According to popular accounts, Charteris hired a ghost writer, Cleve E. Cartmill (1908 – 1964) who also used the pen name Michael Corbin.

“Dawn” is generally attributed to Cartmill. (It was previously attributed to Theodore Sturgeon, but Henry Kuttner also wrote for Charteris, so authorship isn’t clear. Nevertheless, most experts agree that Cartmill was the most likely writer behind the story, “Dawn.”)

Aside: Researching Henry Kuttner becomes another rabbit hole. I started with his robot inventor, first called Gallegher and then Galloway… and quickly landed at some synchronous research at Harvard. It didn’t look promising enough to pursue.

One curious thing — and a flag for Mandela Effect: in 1944, Cartmill had written a story — Deadline — which described the then-secret atom bomb in some detail. That brought Cartmill into an awkward conversation with the FBI.

(Compare with Heinlein’s “Solution Unsatisfactory,” from that same era, which included nuclear arms predictions, a year before Roosevelt authorized the Manhattan Project.)

If you research Cartmill’s main (known) pen name, Michael Corbin, be careful you don’t go astray. Another Michael Corbin (1955 – 2008) was the director of the ParaNet Information Service, one of the Internet’s earliest UFO-related and paranormal websites, with a BBS history as well.

While Cartmill and associates (including his editor, John W. Campbell, who may have been a guiding force) seemed to have access to unusual (but not necessarily secret) information, and a true gift for piecing fragments together, I’m not convinced that’s all they were doing.

For example, it’s difficult to know which is the chicken and which is the egg, when comparing references in “Dawn” to DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, part of The Unites States’ Department of Defense) projects.

“Dawn” seems to point to several DARPA projects… but DARPA was created in 1958 under the American president Eisenhower. “Dawn” was first published (as “A Darker Drink”) in 1947.

(Quirky coincidence: 1958 is the year 42-year-old Henry Kuttner died of an apparent heart attack in Los Angeles.)

With as many as a dozen DARPA references in “Dawn,” explanations can vary widely. It might be plain-vanilla coincidence or — at the other extreme — names created by DARPA as a smokescreen to cover how accurate “Dawn” may have been, and how much the author knew.

It’s very easy to get sidetracked by references in “Dawn” that seemed to predict the future.

For example, here are just a few odd, potential connections. Some have been pointed out by others, especially Vivek (who deserves full credit for this discovery). Others are clearly stated in “Dawn.” (Remember, it was published in 1947.)

  • Jimmy, also called Oswald (an actual name in the story) and — of course — the man attributed with Jack Kennedy’s assassination.
  • Big Bill Holbrook (Sydney Greenstreet, Jack Ruby, Big Jim Garrison)
  • Trailer Mac (Mac Wallace, with connections to Ruby and others)
  • Little Lord Feigenbaum (not Little Lord Fauntleroy, the logical choice) – Feigenbaum (an unusual name) may predict Mitchell Feigenbaum (b. 1944), who pioneered chaos theory  and other important concepts. Or, the name in “Dawn” might be a quirky coincidence.

However, while chasing rabbits that lead to even more labrythine research, it’s easy to lose sight of the main question: Whether “Dawn” points — with many heavy hints — to time travel, parallel realities, and Mandela Effect… or not.

It’s a more tangled question than I’d expected, and I haven’t a clue what the answer is. Everything could be attributed to coincidence and startling synchronicity.

So, there are the leads. Most people probably stopped reading long before this point. For those who want to pursue this, I’ve given you plenty to work with.

Note: I’ve omitted at least half the odd, predictive references in “Dawn,” but welcome others to mention them in comments, as long as we don’t get lost in conspiracy theories that are secondary to the focus of this websites.

A few references, for those who want to pursue this topic further

Alt.pulp summary of the Dawn/Darker Drink story, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.pulp/Lzkf5r5f8FQ

Leslie Charteris’ author page at The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction – http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/charteris_leslie (Mentions that some of Charteris’ work may have been penned by Theodore Sturgeon, Henry Cuttner (1915 – 1958), or Cleve Cartmill, but the latter is generally attributed with authorship of “Dawn.”)

John W. Campbell bio – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Campbell

Cartmill’s pen names – The FictionMags Index, http://www.philsp.com/homeville/fmi/s992.htm and http://www.philsp.com/homeville/fmi/s1231.htm#A28882

Deadline controversy – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadline_%28science_fiction_story%29 and Robert Silverberg’s “reflections” on the story – http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0310/ref.shtml and http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0311/ref2.shtml, explaining that there was no security leak or mystery involved. (The misspelling of “Cleave” in the title of the second article caught my attention, but — even at Asimovs.com — typos happen.)

The second article refers to Heinlein’s “Solution Unsatisfactory,” in greater detail than the current Wikipedia article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution_Unsatisfactory.

Also see another reference to Campbell’s knowledge in “The Cleve Cartmill Affair” – http://www.futilitycloset.com/2010/05/31/the-cleve-cartmill-affair/

If you want to pursue the anagram angle – http://wordsmith.org/anagram/

The Walrus and The Carpenter poem – http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/walrus.html

DARPA – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA, http://www.darpa.mil/,and some “stealth” info including Teal Dawn – http://www.darpa.mil/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2580

Malcolm (Mac) Wallace bio – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Wallace and (far murkier and more conspiracy-related) http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwallaceM.htm

Off-topic… maybe

Henry Kuttner bio – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kuttner and “Neil Gaiman and F. Paul Wilson Discuss Why They’re Reviving Henry Kuttner’s Stories” – http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/04/neil-gaiman-and-f-paul-wilson-discuss-why-theyre-reviving-henry-kuttners-stories

Kutter’s “Time Locker” story was included in “The Best Time-Travel Stories of the 20th Century.” (Google it, or search for “Kuttner ‘Ahead of Time'”.) Most of his stories — and his pen names — are listed at the Index to Science Fiction Collections and Anthologies – http://www.philsp.com/homeville/isfac/s177.htm#A2806

Mitchell Feigenbaum bio – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Feigenbaum

Michael Corbin bio – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Corbin and Michael Corbin’s ParaNet – http://www.paranet.org/

Rarity of the Andrew Faulks name – http://andrew-faulks.nameanalyzer.net/

Another, unrelated coincidence: an author named Dawn Charteris, working with aboriginal dishes for healthier eating http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/4963145 (PDF link at that page was for her complete cookbook — now at http://www.gofor2and5.com.au/Portals/0/PDFs/2and5_QLD_ATSI_Cookbook_Feb09.pdf — with some delicious-sounding recipes. Yes, when almost overwhelmed with a series of odd coincidences, I often default to the mundane.)

55 thoughts on ““Dawn” – More Questions Than Answers”

  1. Julia, read the short story ‘Dawn’ in the collection ‘Saint Errant’ by Leslie Charteris.It is the last story of the book.Charteris was a prolific and prodigal author of thriller genre and it is my belief that the great thriller writers have an insight that no other category of authors have.The story ‘Dawn’ has explored the projection of mind concept as only charteris can do,the book was published in ’48 so it may give you you some food for thought.Being a charteris story,the legitimacy and profoundness is assumed to be genuine.

  2. The story ‘Dawn’ was culmination of 2 decades of the dream run for Charteris,built upon his earlier block buster ‘Saint in new york’ and also the Carroll’s two tales of Alice.The story elucidates the ‘quantum anti zeno effect’ well before the principle was adopted by the scientific fraternity.Though Zeno’s arrow paradox has been in existence for two and a half millennia,the Carroll and Charteris stories invoke an out side agency to effect the particle collapse(not wave form collapse) namely Alice and Saint.Additionally ‘Dawn’ introduces the factor of reverence for bigger agency that is inbuilt in human psyche,a factor that was ignored deliberately by Carroll.Charteris went into hiatus of 5 years after writing this story,something to ponder at.

  3. What i found in ‘dawn’.Though the story has literal components of ME like chartreuse,holbrook,jung the real shocker is when saint says,”You are expecting maybe Little Lord Feigenbaum?”.There was no earthly reason to say ‘feigenbaum’,if you google ‘little lord feigenbaum’ ‘little lord fauntleroy’ page will be opened,and this is exactly what is implied in the story.Mitchell Feigenbaum must have been a newborn when the story was written,the guy is the leading figure in chaos theory,fractals and butterfly effect.Feigenbaum used fractal geometry to develop the software for map scales and projections,Feigenbaum endorses the colour theory of Goethe that says redness is a human perception and can’t be defined by science.In the story Andy Faulks rues that saint is not sleeping in,Forest Lawn Memorial Park Glendale California.Did charteris travel 60 yrs in future before writing this story?

  4. More of ‘Dawn’.The lily maid of Astolat,Elaine,infatuated with Sir Lancelot bore him a son Sir Galahad after lancelot won the diamond tournament.Lady of the lake,Viviane,trapped Merlin and nurtured sir Lancelot,Mark twain traveled into past to get Connecticut yankee Hank to alter the past.Leslie charteris traveled into future and quit the plan to rest in glendale california for a better prospect of lying in windsor, the purported camelot of king arthur.King Arthur, a roman protege, after all led the celts against the hordes of invading anglo saxons.

  5. Dawn has entered the orbit of ceres,the dwarf planet decked up with bright lights in welcome.Ostensibly a mission of space probe managed by jpl Caltech California,it may as well be a visit to the well known alien base.Project Camelot had some very prominent friendly citizens as members,Charteris quit writing and instead started engaging ghost writers just before the start of project in ’64.California is the home of both mythical ‘dawn’ and space ship ‘dawn’.

    1. Hi Vivek,

      Can you elaborate a bit, there??

      I can’t find the words “Carteris”, “Ceres” or “Dawn” on the website for Project Camelot.

  6. Fiona, Have you figured out the story yet?. A story that is classic mandela effect,what with typical vividness of memory and chartreuse halbrook thrown in for good measure.A story that has so many components of DARPA,camelot carroll aspen jung dawn feigenbaum.Project camelot,project looking glass,project aspen movie map,project rv based on jung,project ceres using dawn of calif.,feigenbaum is of course,a living live wire.And mind you the story was published in ’48.

  7. Hi mikkel, first of all it’s charteris, not carteris.You won’t find anything conventionally,it is a sort of nostradamesque intrigue contained in the story ‘Dawn’ of ‘saint errant’ collection written by leslie charteris in 1948.Charteris was a confidante of president roosevelt and so was nikola tesla.The story is a literal mandela effect endorsement,it has slightly hidden references to at least 10 titles of DARPA projects undertaken decades after the publication of story.Camelot is purported in ‘lily maid of astolat’,you will have to read the story to get the full impact,the story may yet turn out to be a proof of time travel achieved by US.

  8. Still more from ‘dawn’,saint says ‘like the walrus the time has come to speak of many things’.The walrus and carpenter(thru the looking glass) take away the baby oysters despite the mother warning them that march is the month when oysters are eaten.The wily walrus eats the most of oysters while the dim witted carpenter gets duped.Lindbergh baby is snatche in march by a carpenter,bruno hauptmann,and it is well known mystery that he wasn’t alone.Then who was walrus?,a clue might be the song written by the immortal beatle,john winston lennon in 1967 titled ‘I am Walrus.by the way oysters were killed 1 mile away from their home and lindbergh baby was found 4.5 miles away from home but was supposed to have been killed at an earler place and dumped at a greater distance.

    1. The month of March, as the time of the poem, is specified only in the Disney film of ALICE — not in the book — and the film did not exist when DAWN was written.

      1. Kate, I’m not sure if this was your point, but: In the context of shifts, slides, time travel, and reality-hopping, the timeline in this reality may not apply.

        Nevertheless, adhering to this timestream: Walt Disney started working on his Alice in Wonderland concepts in 1923 (Ref: Wikipedia) and the 1951 film was in development by 1948, when Saint Errant (including “Dawn”) was published (ref: Wikipedia).

        Also, starting in 1945, British author Aldous Huxley was heavily involved in the script for Disney’s Alice… film. We have no way of knowing how much of his work made it into the final version.

        It’s likely that Huxley and Charteris knew each other, and — in England — may have traveled in similar circles. In addition, both are referenced by Max Wilk as being among Hollywood’s classic screenwriters in the 1930s, and — especially in “Dawn” — I can see shared interests.

        But, as I said, maybe that was your point.

  9. But kate,i never said that ‘dawn’ is an actual dossier of military secrets or that charteris was in know of the perpetrators of the biggest crime since the crucifixion.I don’t suppose i have alluded that charteris was a top spy,he was a top story teller and wrote war novels,the only intelligence job that is accorded to him is the recce of hindenburg’s maiden flight.What i have clearly implied is that either he was prophetic or time traveler.Month of march and the murder of time predates the poem by 6 years,AIW was written in 1865 TTLG in 1871,but in any case i have not been crazy enough to say that charteris directly knew about the crime,prophetic,yes,a gross misunderstanding on your part.

    1. Vivek,

      I’m sorry I approved her comment. I’ve been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, which is why I added extra research info to this thread, in case her comment was just weakly phrased. Your latest response helped clarify what was going on. Thank you.

      This morning, her latest comments (most not approved) are looking troll-like again. I’ve deleted some of her old comments that seemed odd, edited a few others, and I’ll be more watchful in the future.

      (Her IP number has been blacklisted for some time, but not by me. It was automatic. My site’s security software has detected multiple cracking attempts from her IP. That’s not just in reference to this website, and not necessarily Kate’s personal, online activity, but her IP has been flagged as problematic.)

      And yes, I understood your references. (Your early, somewhat obscure ones were a delight. Had I not been so busy, I would have given those a more thorough response.)

      Also, I would not rule out some collusion in references — perhaps even “Easter eggs” — within Huxley’s material, and feel as if it might be worth a second look… if/when I have more hours in the day.

      I take what’s accorded Charteris with a grain of salt. The cleverness of his work is impressive, and certainly suggests greater depths. One might even speculate that the TV series, “The Saint,” may have been created as a smokescreen, knowing that much of the public — upon hearing Charteris’ work referenced — would turn to the TV version rather than read the books.

      Delightful topic, and I’m grateful that you brought it into the discussion.


  10. The inference of ‘DAWN’ lies in future,including the month of ‘march’,which manifested in a short future.The allusion of project,AURORA,(rosy fingered goddess) will be executed in the latter part of 2015.

  11. You’re right fiona, shadowy realms are not what this topic engages in.Personal convictions have a tendency to go vague and irrelevent to discussion,and to relieve myself of similar predicament with referencej to ‘dawn’,i must stress that ‘quantum anti zeno effect’ was an important theme among other things that were referenced by me.QAZE is important in ME research.

    1. Vivek,

      I agree. However, there are elements in the Dawn story (and possibly Charteris’ research) that can refer to cross-dimensional experiences (if we include time in the “dimension” concept), so that’s loosely related to the mechanics of how ME might occur.

      I’m open to both the memories and existing science (or things postulated in physics) that might explain what’s going on. I’m getting ready to launch a monthly podcast that will very generally address some topics I hear about, but the specifics must be kept in confidence. At the moment, I’m combing through research information that’s already “in the wild” so it’s safe to talk about it.

      Shadow realms, et al, may later turn out to be germane to the topic. For now, they’re too fringe for this site, and can easily distract us from the data collection — specific memories, where & when — that may be of use to scientists whose work relates to ME.

      And, of course, I think this site provides good value when it assures people they’re not losing their minds, and others share the exact same alternate memories.


  12. Going superficially deeper,’dawn’ appears to be a basket of easter eggs.The time travel as well as ME intrigue are too obvious to be missed.Tuesday and mac and the dismay of being walrus the villain, could be pointers to an immutable destiny unless of course verse hopping provides some variation a la mandela effect.

  13. ‘Red Owl’ of DARPA can swim and is an acoustic direction finder for sniper fire and other munitions.To be extremely honest,the dawn winter’s words,”my honour” whatever that is’,is a statement i have longed to hear most of my life.

  14. Lake Erie deserves a whole section to itself,what with cryptids,bessie,ghosts,ufos,orange orbs,Robert bigelow and BASS and the biggest of all M&B2.

    1. You’re right, of course, Vivek. The problem is, that would take us even further off-topic. They’re great subjects to research, but the “Dawn” discussion — and the possibility that a group of sci-fi writers in Los Angeles had access to reality-related technology — is my limit for this site.

    2. The entire Great Lakes region is surrounded by clusters of mysterious disappearances, particularly relating to young, college -age men who end up dead in water under improbable circumstances. It’s a VERY weird location. I will not be surprised if ME events are found to be clustered in that area, as well.

  15. I did end up buying the Kindle version of the book so I could read “Dawn.” It was interesting to me, but I just don’t have enough education or background information to say much about it. Fiona and Vivek – you two are impressively well-read. Glad you’re in charge of this website, Fiona.

    1. Julia, you are the most enthusiastic member of this site and your anecdotes are as good in numbers as in quality.As to not being upto mark in background,it has to do more with doggedness than with intelligence,most of us geniuses are actually affecting rather than being a guiding light.Saint books are available for free as web pages at mreadz.com for the cheapest of devices,i read them in my 30$ nokia phone.

      1. Good points, Vivek! And yes, Julia, I consider your comments among the very best at this website. Clearly, you get what we’re talking about.

        Many others do, as well, and I’m grateful for every comment you share here.

        And, I agree with Vivek’s analysis of “geniuses.” The majority of Mensa members I’ve met have had joke explanations for how they got into the society, and none of them had anything to do with intelligence. LOL

        My opinion is: The more you read, the easier it is to spot connections and patterns. I think it may look more impressive than it really is. Vivek and I seem to have read many of the same things (or at least read about similar topics), and tend to play off that with our comments to one another.

        Your insights — and many others’ — are tremendously valuable to this website. You notice things we don’t, and bring fresh views to each thread.

        I look forward to your reaction to the “Star, Bright” story. I was fascinated by the tesseract concept since the town librarian recommended Madeleine L’Engle’s “A Wrinkle in Time.” (Later books in that series didn’t impress me as much, but that was more about unique concepts in the first book than the story itself.) And, as someone who thinks very visually, “Star, Bright” presented the right kind of cognitive dissonance to click with me.

        (To this day, I can’t explain what was being described in the time travel mini-tutorial that Star presented, so don’t think I understand it. I just know what my brain did, trying to make sense of it. And, back when I was a feisty kid, regularly arguing with Dr. Leary, I used “Star, Bright” as an example of why drugs weren’t necessary to expand one’s thinking. Reading could do it better and with more lasting clarity. Dr. Leary and I never found much common ground in those discussions. LOL)

      2. Thanks Vivek. I appreciate the compliments. I hope you and Fiona don’t think I was “fishing for compliments” – I just wanted to explain why I couldn’t contribute a lot to this discussion. You too are very well read.

        1. No problem, Julia, and it never crossed my mind you might be fishing for compliments. Really. Your “voice” in text is very clear, and — as a result — I feel like I know you in real life. So, no worries!

          1. Great! And I like the comment about my “voice” even better. Thank you. I wonder if you could pick me out of a line-up of smiling short women if we each said a few words.

    2. Thanks, Julia!

      And, I agree. Vivek and I engage in some very odd, geeky conversations. The “Dawn” topic was an extreme, and Vivek urged me to go public with this because it may lead to additional support for the reality (no pun intended) of Mandela Effect.

      Regarding “Dawn,” Vivek has delved far more deeply into the story’s predictive elements than I have. All I did was verify enough of them — some of which are in his past comments in other threads — and then post my own tangent as well.

      As I see it, lots of people write speculative fiction (aka “science fiction”) with a few points that become real, later. Everyone from Wells to Bellamy to Heinlein to Bradbury have succeeded, admirably. That’s not news.

      The odd thing about “Dawn” is how many references were accurate, pointing to actual events rather than inventions.

      When I rolled up my sleeves and dug into the story’s references as well as the history of Charteris’ cohorts in the sci-fi & fantasy community (especially in Los Angeles), the picture changed. We may never know how much (possibly) classified information John W. Campbell fed to his writers. They, in turn, were certain to discuss it among themselves, and add their own speculations. So, their stories may have reflected security lapses more than anything predictive or indicating time travel or reality shifts.

      Nevertheless, many things in “Dawn” seem unrelated to covert scientific research… unless time travel (or journeys to a parallel reality some years ahead of us) was involved.

      When Vivek mentioned “Dawn,” I had to re-read it in a Mandela Effect context. A few things really lit up for me, in “cue the Twilight Zone soundtrack” ways.

      I can’t rule out the possibility that, in the 1940s and 1950s — with or without Campbell’s connections and information — a cabal of sci-fi writers found a way to slide through time or across realities. Or both.

      I’m not sure if this will help: As a child, my interest in this kind of subject developed after reading a short story I found particularly galvanizing: “Star, Bright” by Mark Clifton. (Search on “Star Bright” and “tesseract” and you’ll find references to the story, or you can read the entire story at Astraea Web.)

      The time travel (and possibly reality slide) tutorial elements made sense to me. I can’t explain why… they just did, and still do, and began my life-long fascination with related topics. And, I have good reason to believe Clifton was conveying a time travel method that works, but I’m not sure how much is literal and how much is the construct your mind creates using the unique cognitive dissonance presented in the story. (Again, this is difficult to articulate, and Clifton’s explanation was eloquent anyway. I’d love to read his original version, to see what was edited out.)

      Here’s a link to one book that discusses “Star, Bright”: Google Books – Time Machines, by Paul J. Nahin.

      Here’s a link to “Star, Bright” and other stories, and (on Page 1) it includes a reference to Clifton’s connection to Campbell: Google Books – The Science Fiction of Mark Clifton.

      I’m not sure if any of that will help explain why “Dawn” seems like a “smoking gun” regarding time travel or reality slides, because “Dawn” is less about the mechanics and mostly littered with obscure references to future events. It’s a matter of tracking down odd references — things that leap off the page or seem incongruous, even within the context of the story — to see what they might be talking about.

      And, at the very least, “Star, Bright” may explain my fascination with Mandela Effect and related topics. Since reading that story, I’ve had no doubt that time travel is possible. Reality slides seem an adjunct to that.


      1. Cool! 🙂 I am definitely going to read “Star Bright.” Thanks for your comments and for the link. Right now I just happen to be reading “The Time Traveler’s Wife” because a friend recently gave me her extra copy. But if you’ve read it, which you probably have, it’s mainly about the emotional impact of involuntary time travel on the two main characters.

      2. ‘Star bright’ is among many of the literature pertaining to time travel.There being no future is the standard paradigm of the space time continuum elucidated by newton and subsequent mathematicians including laplace,carroll and einstein.To actually teleport physical objects from different periods is an intrigue that has many anecdotes but time travel of consciousness is certainly a deep issue of existentialism despite a greater number of anecdotes.Mandela effect and the sliding concept gives a twist to those bothered with the meaninglessness of life and the finality of death as evidenced in time travel to future.ME and quantum immortality certainly give points to ponder, over a lifetime.

  16. Some facts of Dawn: Pinecone is the symbol of pineal gland,third eye,kundalini awakening and spiritual awakening.Calla lily the most unusual flower is the symbol of, beauty,grace,death and resurrection and proliferates in Robben islands.Fire opal is the most living gem and covers the gamut from chartreuse to brick red.Lake Erie is widely believed to be a ufo base and the likeliest spot for et disclosure.A deluded alter ego with a psychiatric literature in hand shoots a saint at 10:40 pm.

  17. Dawn makes me feel like Dantes navigating Hades,guided not by Virgil but by Richard Dawkins.

  18. Just for the sake of humour,another iconic american,elvis,could be tied with the story.Gladys love Presley seems to be the ‘Dawn’, gladys is welsh for royalty,a princess.Gladys indeed has similarity of features with her great great grandmother,Morning White Dove,a cherokee indian, native of great lakes.Gladys gave birth to Elvis Presley in a dawn of winter.

    1. Vivek, maybe you are hinting at more by mentioning Elvis. It really does seem related according to what you guys are saying. Link looks like Celine Dion, her mother Theresa Dion, Celine’s husband, and her band members.
      I do not know a thing about “Dawn” other than what is posted here regarding quantum immortality and the like. The name Charteris, I am sure you have broken down in elements like chartreuse and researched the plan it and goddess associated so what is it that you really want to say?
      (Your comment about chartreuse, by the way, has been noted.)

      1. Daniel, The whole of ‘Dawn’ indicates the negative energies present in US,natural as well as man made.High sierras is the graveyard for planes,deadlier than the bermuda triangle.Legendary aviator and billionaire Steve Fossett’s plane was pulled down by a powerful down draft similar to the traction beam of ufos.More than 700 planes have gone down in the mountain range and most of them have never been found.Similar is the case for ships cruising in Lake Erie,so the north and south of US is a convergence of negative ley lines.i still have to unravel some episodes of the short story.

  19. A simulation,”I can’t do what I like,some how,she said.I can only do what I must.It’s always that way”.When Dawn does do what she likes,she does not defy simulation,she enters an alternate simulation.When we go against the laid down traits of our zodiacal sign or for that matter myers-briggs profile,we don’t snub the esoteric sciences,we just make a universe hop a la mandela effect.This is what i have understood so far.

  20. It is important to document and acknowledge these smoking guns.

    Rather than learning of future events perhaps the author/s knew the truth, (themselves or from a source, in a normal or metaphysical manner) and they were compelled to write what is going on and what will go on in order for that reality to occur. The ‘but I TOLD you what I was doing’ defense.

    ME makes me want to reread PK Dick all again …

  21. Lindbergh and Fossett were the greatest solo aviators US has produced.Lindbergh baby and Fossett were the biggest manhunts in US history.

  22. JFK might have been in the know of his own killing,he said so much in words when he said it was the best time to get killed.I am repeating the chain of characters and other things in the story: Oswald is the jockey type, of slender build same as the actual Oswald, Mac is athletic type,a yes sir killer,same as the actual Mac Wallace, Sidney greenstreet aka Appopoulis is night club operator in Casablanca who fires a single bullet from .38 revolver same as Jack Ruby,a night club operator in actual did.Casablanca is portugese for, ‘White House’.An immutable destiny or American time travel experiment ?

  23. Lots of strange things happened in ’47 besides ‘Dawn’.Roswell,Maury island,Face on mars,Start of cold war,Independence of India etc.

    1. Vivek, you find the most fascinating trivia! That series of events is rather chilling to see in one year. Really, I had no idea they were time coincident.

  24. Various intrigues notwithstanding,I still find the naivete of Dawn an outstanding feature of the story.When Dawn professes her ignorance of the word ‘honour’,she is articulating the actual mind of all woman since adam came on the scene.That cave men fought over women is an urban legend,it is the male ego that perpetuates the myth of a woman’s honour.If a woman prefers another man,it should be her prerogative rather than infidelity or sluttiness.Lady Chatterly was always called ‘lady’,the most people could do was to banish her for half a century.

  25. At the end of the story Dawn,Jimmy gets ‘entangled’ with Saint.Appopoulis fires,and Saint sees the answer to the greatest mystery of all,sharp and clear in the mirror.Saint becomes the observer and the observed of the ‘entanglement’ thru the agency of mirror,he dies and yet he lives.In the alternate reality Jimmy becomes the one who gets killed precipitating the reality of,schizophrenic, Andrew Faulks’ projection, killing him as well.The timing of the firing ,10:40 p.m,was same when a real life saint,Lennon,was shot by a schizophrenic.Sydney greenstreet aka Appopoulis aka Big Bill aka Andrew faulks(he admits shooting in delirium) in fact chose to rest in,Forest Lawns,Glendale.

  26. On further contemplation it seems that a very pervasive ME trait has taken root in our new timeline,and that is,’cowardice is in the air’,people are no more responding to tit if it has been in reaction to tat.Machines have taken over a large part of services and the wars are becoming more of a match to determine who has superior machines with humans getting caught in the crossfire,even the suicide killers are obviously a kind of manchurian candidates rather than motivated ideologues.Law enforcement is either absent or dealt with by pathological members of police or public.Otherwise people all over are avoiding confrontation,in beaucracy as well as civil society,as if they are mortally afraid.Cowardice is in the air,might be a message for the new ME induced timeline for 21st century,that was prophetically indicated in ‘Dawn’.

  27. Here is something interesting. I noticed that Saint is an anagram for Stain. But also, ERRANT is close to “Beren”, the remaining letters in Berenstain. If you take the extra “r” and “t” and apply a little numerology – r is the 18th letter, t is 20th, it results in 2…the second letter which is the missing B!!

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